Ep 6 Journey of a home renovation from a clients perspective

Join me, Lisa-Marie Elkhadraoui in this captivating episode of Design Boss Dialogue as I sit down with my  friend and former client, Sam, to delve into the intricacies of home renovation. In this engaging conversation, we discuss the importance of meticulous planning, the invaluable role of hiring professionals, and the myriad lessons learned from their renovation journey.

Discover why every successful renovation begins with detailed planning and attention to detail, and learn how hiring professionals can save you time, reduce stress, and ensure high-quality results. Understand the critical aspects of kitchen design that make for a functional and beautiful space, and explore the emotional highs and lows of transforming a home and how to navigate them. Hear about the synergy between clients and designers that leads to the best outcomes, gain insights into the essential steps to take before starting a renovation to ensure a smooth process, and embrace the journey and trust in the process to achieve your dream home. 
Discover how colour selections can transform the feel of your home and learn the importance of clear communication with tradespeople for project success. Understand that every renovation project is unique and requires tailored solutions.

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Transcript

Welcome back to day six of the Design Boss Dialogue Advent Calendar podcast, I am your host, Lisa Marie Elkhadraoui, and over the next 20 days, we will be unwrapping gifts of wisdom, practical tips, and insider secrets to help you grow and thrive in the world of interior design. And today we are going into one of my favourite topics, which is the journey of a home renovation from a client's perspective.

I am joined by not only a lovely friend of mine, but a previous client. I met Sam in 2021 when her husband reached out for their home renovation project. Mosca then started the design work for their gorgeous new home in January, 2022. And when we started the renovation in June that year, and when I told her about the podcast, we both agreed that this was a topic we should cover and speak about.

Sam, welcome to Design Boss Dialogue and thank you so much for joining me.

Lisa, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here and talking all things renovation. So the big question is what made you not do this renovation yourself? Well, where do I start? So my partner and I had previously renovated a house before ourselves with no interior designer, no project manager, and we sourced everything ourselves. And needless to say, that did not go well for us. There was an argument in the middle of the road one day. I'm loving this, I love it. We did not love it. We did not love it. And... we decided on this particular project, because we now had the added addition of children into the mix, that we would get someone in to make all of the big important decisions for us. Because whilst we knew what we wanted, we definitely wanted some vision and direction. 

So with your previous renovation, doing it yourselves, how long did it take? to do from start to finish? So I think from the beginning, we always knew we were going to renovate that house. So it was always on the cards. we did a very basic design on the back of a scrap of paper and handed it over to a builder. Now, now I can see the error of my ways and why then it was a disaster and why we were arguing in the middle of the road.

So with regards to obviously the design, did you design as you went along? Yes, so the renovation that we did was not as big as the renovation that we did with you. However, there was still removal of walls, there was still complete kitchen change and because of that there was electrical work, plumbing work and all of which did not go to plan.

So we would not be, we would not be doing that again. So you obviously, so you done your renovation. went okay, you're still together, which is you've survived a home renovation. Yes. Which I think is the test of any relationship. Yeah. Any, relationship across the country. And there'll be people listening to this saying, my God, I'm in the same boat. And if Sam can get through it, I can get through it. But

when you finished that renovation, you put the house on the market and you went to look for your next project. Did you know you wanted a project in mind that you were going to get someone in to help and support you do it? Yes. So as with so many people that are on the property market, we knew we had to buy a do-or-upper in the area that we wanted to live in. It was never an option to buy something that was beautiful straight off the back.

As you know, Lisa, my house was purple from top to bottom. we just, can we just give the listeners a visual experience here from the minute you open that front door and walked through that hallway. Let's just talk them through the different. I mean, I want to say like the 50 shades of gray book here, but it was 50 shades of purple. It really was. So the kitchen doors. the kitchen door. What can only be described as Cadbury's purple. So I'm hoping that everyone is able to visualize that. all know Cadbury's well. a Cadbury's bar, of chocolate. That's right. Shiny purple. Yeah. Yep. And tiling, mosaic tiling that had definitely been done themselves.

Yes, it was a treat for the eyes, wasn't it? Let's talk about the wallpaper in the lounge. So yeah, that was... Well, actually, I think before we go to the wallpaper in the lounge, we need to discuss that the people prior to us had removed their integrated fridge and freezer from the kitchen to put a cupboard that you entered from the hallway. Yes, And then we had to have our fridge and freezer in the middle of the kitchen because where it should have been... there was a cupboard that was entered by the hallway. I don't even know if we can visualise that. Do you know what I am now the visions of the kitchen are coming back. So I want you for the listeners, I want you to close your eyes and think about if you're standing in a doorway to the right hand side, there was this fridge in the middle of the kitchen. And then there was like a wraparound worktop with a sink with the shiny purple doors. 

Then to the other side, was the rest of the kitchen with a table, but there was just so much purple. So much purple, but so little storage space for so much purple. I don't quite know how they achieved that. So there was a lot of what looked like a lot of cupboard space, but yet nothing went in there. And then the hallway was like a lilac purple. It was a toned down version of the kitchen, which I think they were trying to maybe play it safe because the kitchen was so bold.

But then the lounge. The lounge, it was a sight. It was lilac and purple jacquard. Is that how you would describe it? I'd say like a dam sack. it's almost like if Lawrence Llewellyn Bowen was purple, it would be him on a wall. It was crazy. And it wasn't just a feature wall, was it? was was the whole room. So if you can imagine.

it's an open plan lounge conservatory area going into the garden. The whole thing was dam sack purple wallpaper from floor to ceiling. Yeah. It was almost like they couldn't get enough purple. I actually think the only room that wasn't purple was the WC. was white. Yes. And very dull. And it's now the room that I love the most.

We call it the bougie bathroom when we go to Sam's. It is amazing. So with that in mind, Sam had a very purple house when we first met, what was the brief? Dampen down the purple. And we were moving the kitchen from the front of the house to

the back of the house where the space was much larger. We wanted to move away from a separate kitchen to living room. We very much wanted open plan because that's what we had done in our last house and it works for us as a family. So that was the brief and we were adding in a utility room that wasn't there before. So there was a lot of work to be done, completely moving all the utilities,

it was a whole ground floor remodel of the and we, having done a renovation that was nowhere near the scale, the enormity of that ourselves, and it not going well, we knew that such a big renovation was going to need, we were going to need external help. So how did you come, obviously I'm over the moon that you came and found me. Of course because we are, best of friends today, I love it. And how did you come to find Moska as a company and how did you know that we were the right company for you? Anthony and I call ourselves the creative team and the financial team. I am the creative team, Anthony is the financial team. So Anthony did the logistical thing of going and looking online. I did the thing of going and asking my friend who works in the industry, who can you recommend? Because she didn't do work of that size at the time. And she recommended you and Anthony found you. 

So we had two names that were the same and we contacted you and you came for initial meeting at our house. And I remember when you walked out of the door, Anthony and I said, we have to have her and we just have to make it work, whatever it is. We have to make it work. And we had spoken, we had kind of put it out to tender to other people and no one impressed us with their depth of knowledge, their understanding, their want to make it right for us as a family as you did. I love that. 

I think it's so important when you go to a client's property that their house is their sanctuary and it doesn't become about the designer and the designer's want, It's all about the client and the client's need and want, because I think this is where I see so many designers fall by the wayside with renovations, is they become too opinionated in what they feel they would like over their style, not considering the client's vision and the client's style. That's the word I was thinking of. They get carried away with their own vision. And whenever you see kind of a, like a...

a version of an interior designer that goes completely off in their artistic realm, which of course is amazing. And some people want that. And it's about gauging who is it that needs loads of support? Who is it that needs less support? Do they need more support in other areas? Less support in this area. So yes, it's a process, I'm sure, for you to work out what people need and when. call it a little bit of a super talent because to really understand a client's needs, there's obviously a process and that's something I go through with clients. It's like a step-by-step guide. But with you and Anthony, we went through a really in-depth process before we even started the renovation.

So talk me through the pre renovation work. we started the design work in January, 2022, and we started the renovation work in June, 2022. Now I know I see so many designers fall by the wayside, not taking their time to do the design work properly and do it far too close to the renovation work, we have particular processes in place as a company that we take a certain amount of time to do that work. Talk me through from your perspective how you found that process before we even started the renovation. So that process is really important because in our previous renovation, like I said, we had sketched this move around on a piece of paper and because of that things didn't go the way we thought they would it's going to sound really silly but I hadn't thought of things like how big do we want the utility room to be? I was just like I just want a utility room. How big do you want your front playroom to be?

 I don't know and now that I'm saying it I can realise how ridiculous that sounds like you turned up to our house and I didn't even know how big I wanted them to be I was just like please turn this house into what we want it to be, you do it. But of course we need to have some input into that. And we found that that process really important and there were parts of it where you were really, really meticulous over the detail. And I wholeheartedly appreciate that now. And at the time I was thinking, yeah, why does this one centimetre matter? But it really matters because that one centimetre could have thrown the whole project off and you know, just anything out can be completely detrimental. So that process of even before you're thinking about paint colours, before you're thinking about kitchens, before you're thinking about what light bulbs it is you want over your island, that process of meticulously planning to the millimetre where you want these things to be is, it's just vital.

So going back to ask the listener to visualise the space, we effectively carved the ground floor into three to four key areas. So from my perspective as a designer, before we even talked about paint colors or specification or anything like that, for me, it was really important to understand for you as a client how you really wanted these spaces to flow and to work for you as a family because you had at the time one little girl and a surprise little girl on the way, which we found out in the renovation, which we were so happy because also you and I were pregnant at the same time with our second children. That's right. And going through that summer pregnant whilst doing that renovation.

Yeah, it was fun from both sides, wasn't it? We're going to come onto that in a minute because I've got something funny that I'm going to say about that. with regards to the design work, the wall placements, the service runs, the electrical, the small power, the lighting, the mechanical, the floor levels, all of that is so key from a designer's point of view to get right in the pre renovation stage. Did you, before we got started on this spec, did you expect for someone like me and Nikki to go into that level of cellular detail and what was your expectation around it? No, and it's a case, a real case in this situation of you don't know what you don't know. I'm a primary school teacher.

I have no concept whatsoever of a build in, whether that's a new build or a renovation. I had never done that before. We had done our own renovation, but as we've already covered, that was a disaster. Now, I know the answer is I did not expect that level of detail. And I actually had no understanding of that level of detail and how important it was and why you would need to do that.

What is that machine that you used to measure the room? You put it up on the wall. the laser. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember seeing that many times and I always knew it was serious when that came out. Yes. We're moving along. This is great. We're taking really serious measurements here. Yeah. And just thinking about where light switches were. Like, again, I feel really silly saying I didn't even think about where I wanted light switches because that is a key element of a room. Where do you want a light switch? where do you want lights and where do you want sockets? And as you remember, Anthony is meticulous about plug sockets, whereas I really didn't care and thought that he was being over meticulous. But now again, I even appreciate his case, getting all of those in the right places. So we really appreciated the level of detail, mainly because as it was coming up,

I was like, I hadn't even thought of this. This is so important. I hadn't thought of that. And I remember you always saying, how do you want this space to work for you? And especially when it came to kitchen design, you know, because we were moving our kitchen, we were designing it from scratch. And there you have such an amazing opportunity to make it work exactly for you. And again, I hadn't even really thought about that. To me, a kitchen was cupboard sink cooker, but you know, I love cooking and... that I love being in the kitchen and we'd made it open plan for a reason so that we can make it work with our family. And actually how those cupboards worked and where they were is integral. And I hadn't thought of that, but you were really persistent in making me think about that.

Our perspective as a designer, when we tackle a kitchen renovation or certainly a ground floor renovation and the kitchen is gonna be moving or changing.

We always ask our clients, how do they want that kitchen to function and work for them? how do you want this space to work and flow for you as a family and a growing family as well?

How much do you have in your cupboards? What do we need to consider? All the KitchenAid all the pantry the fridge, the freezer, wine cooler, veg racks, bin storage is a massive one. I was actually really impressed when we went to the kitchen company, the detail of the bin storage and ensuring that we had two different type of bins, the loading of the bins, what the bins could take. For me, you know, I mean, don't get me started, it's such a sexy detail talking about bins. Well, you say that Lisa, but I hadn't thought of it. Again, something I hadn't thought about. We just always had had like a- Pedal bin? Yeah, that was in our kitchen and I was fine with that. I now I'm so glad that I don't have to look at one of those every day. So again, you're, you saying- you need this in your life. It hides it. Look how big it is. And again, bins. Who knew they were life-changing? I know. They are life-changing. And I suppose also the fact of the microwave being integrated into the wall units rather than its clutter on the work surface. 

Sam is an amazing cook, We go to Sam for the bakes because she is the best baker and she has a gorgeous collection of cookbooks. And again, it was, where do we store the cookbooks? Yeah, again, and I hadn't thought of that. And the microwave was a late edition. Do you remember? said, no, we don't need one. We don't use one. And then right at the last minute we said, no, we're going to need one and it needs to be integrated because...

I don't want to look at it. And that's why I initially said no. But yeah, you and the kitchen company were great at, yeah, that's fine. We can find a space for it, the space that you're happy with. Yeah, that was another great addition. And I think we went through most probably two rounds of kitchen designs to get to the point. And then also we added the integration of the microwave. So in total, we had three... integrations and variations of drawings, which worked really well because that's what we would predict as the norm. Yeah. And that was even, I think, solidified in the May and we hadn't started the renovation yet. So from our side, we really wanted to make sure that every detail was considered properly. 

Yes and going back to obviously we had the floor plans, the drawings, the electrical plans, the light switches, the sockets where the lighting was going to go. And then we started the sexy stuff. The paint colours, wallpaper. Yes, yes. But before we move on to that amazing part, I think it's really worth noting that the timing of this was just out of... COVID where everyone was doing their houses and that's why you were so meticulous about getting everything in advance. So that when we did start the projects, all of the materials, all of the trades people that we needed were all lined up because there was a huge problem with materials at the time. absolutely. So we had to order our kitchen well in advance because I people that are having renovations now, they ordered their kitchen last week and it's arrived next week.

Yeah, that wasn't my experience. We had to really think about it because there was no wood anywhere in the UK. again, having someone on board on our renovation that knew these things, we wouldn't have known that, that that was going to be an issue. And that would have been a significant issue if we'd hired someone to fit our kitchen, but the kitchen didn't turn up until a month later. So all of these things just really helped make the time that we had people in our house really smooth.

Yeah, I think it's also from an interior designer's side, which sometimes the client doesn't know or appreciate just because they're not in that industry. So they don't have maybe a pool of knowledge around it is the orchestration of trades and materials and the amount of detail that goes into every single supplier specification. When you're dealing with a renovation of your size, we had spreadsheets with 120, 150 lines. considered a big project. was still a sizable project, but every day we were going through those lines, making sure, right, has that been done? That's going to affect that, call that, do that, puppeteer that, do that. So I think from a client's perspective,

You don't see that going on, but the five months that we took to do all that prep work obviously led us to day one of the renovation when we started on the 10th of June. Yeah. When the purple kitchen got ripped out. I mean, that was a sexy day. It was. And the picture, I don't think a photo sent to my phone has ever made me so happy. I remember we were like, ''Sam. the purple kitchen is in the skip. Now you're 100 % sure you do not want to keep a door for memorabilia''. And then like the answer, there was a couple of exclusives in there and then no, exclamation mark, exclamation mark. It's not coming back. No, that is not coming back. And the wallpaper gone, the hallway colour gone. Yeah, all gone. from your perspective, when we finally started, so we solidified all of the design, we solidified all the floor plans.

We solidified all the spec. Obviously we had the most bougiest bathroom going in. The most expensive room in the house per square meter. Yeah, I mean, it's not a big bathroom. It's a downstairs toilet, but it's not even square meter, is it? No, I think it's like a centimeter. think it's like a meter and a half in total. It was the smallest space, but it's the most, it packs a punch. Yes.

Yeah, it does. And still to this day, anyone that walks in it just loves it. And I still love it every day. I think it's the combination of materials, lighting, wallpaper, tiling and finishes that just do it for me. It's just almost like it's the perfect fusion. And I remember when you came to me and said, I want a bougie bathroom You gave us your inspiration imagery.

Nikki in the office, she is amazing at finding wallpapers and we gave you several different options. The herringbone tiling, mean Sam has the most sexiest sugar pink herringbone tiling with black trims and this gorgeous botanical paper. One of my favourite stories about our renovation is about that wallpaper and it's because

The wallpaper I chose from Pinterest, I sent to Nikki and she said, Sam, you can absolutely have that wallpaper, but it is 300 pounds a roll and you need three rolls And that was a no in our budget. And then she found me something remarkably similar for significantly less. And I love it just as much. And that's what you get when you are working with a design company. They are able to be out there finding things that you would not have found or even considered. Because I'd seen that wallpaper online, the one that Nikki found me, completely bypassed it. But then she got the sample for me and I loved it. And I would not have done, that would not have been a process that I'd have gone through myself. And it's the best dream in our house. I think it's also for us, when a client comes to us and says, absolutely love this.

Could you find us an alternative or what else is going to work? Our job is about finding the best products for the budget as well. And I know that Nikki, she is amazing at sourcing exactly what you want and need, finding alternatives. And she was such an integral part of the project of the specification as well, because we

really wanted to make the space look luxe, elegant from start to finish, from when you came in through the front door, right through to the back of the house. The whole journey of colour and texture had to flow as well. So was really important that every single piece of material worked. Yes. And we ended up on green, didn't we? 

Everywhere in that yes. The has an element of green in it, which wasn't on our spec at the beginning. We had no colour spec at the beginning. And everywhere that we ended up choosing had a hue of green or very explicit green. I think it came from the wallpaper though, because the wallpaper had essences of it. Yeah. And then we tied that in for the journey at the front. Yeah. Because the living room is effectively called Livid. Yes. By Little Green. Yeah. Which...

I love, I love that colour. And then the sofas, they're just the sexiest version of emerald, velvet green. Yes, and pink. And pink. That Nikki sourced. That Nikki sourced. Because they did, the sofa company didn't do the colour we wanted. So she sourced the fabric, sent it to the sofa company, and they made it. Yeah.

Again, I would never have done that, or even have known that I could have done that. It would have been, this is the showroom, these are the colours, choose what you want. But no, that was not good enough for Nikki. She was going to get us exactly what we wanted, and that is exactly what we got. And I think from start to finish with all the materials, they just work so, well. And I'm gonna put in the show notes a link to a reel on our Instagram so people can see.

The before and after. they can see the purple monstrosity and then they can see how bougie the end result is. I want to get into the gritty stage now of the renovation because some people think, God, the renovation starting, this is going to be crazy. But just talk me through your side of the renovation when it started because it was one of the quickest ground floor renovations we've done today. took 10 weeks from start to finish. Talk me through that. So we moved out and that was, again, that was really integral to the process so that things could just be left and picked up the next day by whichever trades people needed to be in. And yeah, the kitchen was ripped out in a day and then tradespeople were coming in to move things around. So that was like a gas, electric, water, Things were being plumbed into walls and a wall was put up because we created a utility room where there was a kitchen. And yeah, things were just moving really quickly. And then I think they slow down a bit. And I think that can, I think I got worried at that point that things were slowing down, but it's just, it's a visual thing. It's not because things are actually slowing down.

It's because everything's gone and then, nothing can go back as quickly as things can be ripped out. And again, that's another learning curve, I think, and parts of the renovation that I think people can worry about. It's that seeing, wanting to see continuous progress. But as you've already alluded to with planning and prep, that is part of the process. It's going on in the background and getting electricians and plumbers and plasterers and wallpaper is all lined up.

That is part of the process and that's not always seen by the client. So again, there might be a period in the middle where it looks like things aren't happening and then all of a sudden you walk back into your house and the kitchen's there and bathroom's taking shape and it's just, trusting the process is definitely where we knew we trusted the process because we weren't living there, it made it so much quicker and easier. And when we were going back, progress was being made and you would see it really clearly. And when we moved back, was all go, go, go, wasn't it? Because we moved back and then a week later, our second daughter arrived. I love that. I remember that summer so clearly. So I was eight to 10 weeks behind Sam It was a really hot summer. So Sam was due in the August. I was due in the October. And towards the end where the finer details were going in, Sam had the most amazing air conditioning unit.

It had to be put into the kitchen, into the main space and some days I would go to Sam's house be in that aircon. It was amazing. And I remember, so we had a very clear date that the renovation had to finish, which was the middle of August and the reason being is because Sam was due I remember the day that you were coming back with your daughter was the final morning that we were finishing the renovation. So we had the sparkle cleaning, we were doing cleaning the floors, cleaning the doors, like getting everything set up and ready. And for me, handing over a project to a client at the end, I just want it absolutely perfect, right down to if it was me and I was having that project handed to me, I always had a project back, how I would expect to have it myself. So that's where we pride ourselves as a company is because the quality of service that we like to deliver when we do that, everything just has to be down to a T. Everything has to be perfect. Talk me through the feeling you went through when you walked back into the space for the first time. So we had walked back in a week before that, but when...

I walked back in again on the 15th of August. It was so reassuring. We'd walked back in with a newborn and everything was just as it should be and just how we wanted it. And I remember you'd been finishing lighting that morning because the lighting hadn't arrived and the lighting was there. And it was just, it was...

A delight,  everything that we had worked for and everything that we had internally felt stressed about, like hoping it would be finished on time. Of course we'd given you a date and we knew you were going to stick to it. There is always that internal worry that something could go wrong. But it didn't. And we got back in on time and everything was beautiful. And we still absolutely love it and look forward to kind of adding still all of our kind of bits and bobs around.

But yeah, it's become a really wonderful family space for us that still works even with the addition of another child. If listeners were listening and they were thinking about doing a home renovation and they weren't sure about using an interior design company, what would your advice be to them?

So this has actually happened to us where people that we know have wanted to do a renovation and they think they can save several thousand pounds or however much fees are for them with whoever they're inquiring into by not paying somebody to help them or project manager interior design. And having now done both, I would never ever do a project on my own again, ever.

I don't know how people think they can orchestrate that many tradespeople and that many moving parts of a project themselves. But I wonder if it comes from a place a bit like my first renovation where it's just a kitchen move. It's just a couple of walls going up. You don't really realise what it takes to do these things until you're in it.

So maybe the people that I am speaking to have never done it before and they think that it's really easy to do a renovation or an extension. Neither are easy at all, ever. And I would not, I just wouldn't wish it on anyone to do it themselves, especially people with families. Like, hey, you've got, know, as a, as a mom, as a dad, as a carer, as anyone, you have enough to think about without worrying where the electrician is. That morning, let someone else do that for you. Yeah. So much easier. I think it's also a lot of clients think I'm going to save so much money on going and trying and sourcing it myself. And actually I'm going to get discount on this and I'm going to get discount on that. And in the long run, it comes down to a time versus money element. And you actually pay twice as much even more not using someone because you're having to do the legwork and the phone calls and the chasing. And if things go wrong, you have to put it right because you're the only one that's going to move the needle in the project. No one else is going to do it. But when someone completely removed from your life is doing it, they are running the project to them. It's all they're doing for you or certainly within their business. So it becomes an integral part of their job and they're just feeding high level information. So it removes a lot of overwhelm and stress from the clients. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that is exactly what we found. And our neighbours were telling us how meticulous you were and how you kept everyone on a tight leash on that project. And yeah, it was just...

Yeah, it was the best decision that we ever made and there isn't a single penny of what we spent on that renovation that we regret or think we could have saved. I just don't think so at all. I think it was, the best money we spent was making sure that the project stayed on time exactly as it should. No, that's not looking good. None of that. That was all gone. No unexpected costs, any unexpected costs we incurred were because me and Anthony changed our mind about things. We wanted to add things or up-spec things and we did go over our initial budget but through our own choice, not through a builder saying, we didn't expect that or it just things like that coming up. It was all our own choice that we knew we were going to go over. I think so we used a separate contractor we had worked with in the past.

Again, with the contracting team, they were pricing everything in the pre-renovation stage and we were monitoring the costs in the pre-renovation stage. And then we locked the costs in at the end so that everything was monitored, costed and presented to you in a final tender for you to sign off. So that there were no surprises or, by the way, you're going to need an extra X amount of meters of wood. And we never considered that detail. We always do say to clients, with renovations, until we start taking the walls apart or the ceilings or anything like that, we never know what's going to be behind the wall. And I remember actually, one wall stayed and several other walls got built and the quality of the wall that was staying.

That the previous developers had built was so poor. I think we just had to extra board it out for soundproofing because we had allowed for that level of detail in our walls. That was the only thing that I think was in there. And like I say, we always say to clients to add an additional 20 % on.

I don't even think we had to do that with your job because everything was so tightly considered at the beginning. And that's the advice that I'd give to other interior designers that are going into renovation with clients is do your pre-work. Tell your clients, give yourselves a four to six month run in time, pre-renovation to do this level of work and the renovation will run like clockwork. yeah. Client side, I completely agree with you. Couldn't agree more. I love it. thank you so much, Sam, for coming onto today's podcast. It's been so lovely to have this conversation because I know every time I step inside your house, it brings me so much joy. And there's no purple. No, there's no purple left and we can't thank you enough for helping us. And yeah, here we are two and a bit years later.

Two and a bit years later. here we are. I love it. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Stay tuned for tomorrow's episode as I have a trailblazer of a woman. I am so honored she is coming onto the podcast. She is my coach and mentor. Samantha Hearn will be joining me and we are going into why resilience matters as a business owner and how to stand strong in your design business. Join me tomorrow morning for another empowering conversation.